Bob Odenkirk

In the second season of AMC’s critically acclaimed Breaking Bad, viewers were introduced to Saul Goodman, a fast-talking criminal lawyer enlisted by Walter White to help launder his meth empire earnings. The character, played by Bob Odenkirk in his first dramatic role, was so compelling that once Breaking Bad ended its run, he was given his own spin-off show. Creators Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould have used Better Call Saul as an origin story, telling the tale of Jimmy McGill, a former con man turned struggling attorney trying to do right by the brother he admires and the woman he loves.

WS: Congratulations on the Emmy nomination!
ODENKIRK: It’s pretty exciting. The writing is the star, and it helps me so much, and then on top of it I am surrounded by astounding, powerful performers, like Jonathan Banks [who plays Mike Ehrmantraut] and the great Michael McKean, who played my brother, Chuck. Boy, I tell you, you get in a room with those people and you raise your game.

WS: When did you first start talking to Peter Gould and Vince Gilligan about the prospect of a show focused on Saul?
ODENKIRK: Vince Gilligan came to me in the third season of Breaking Bad, which was the second season that Saul appeared [in], and said, “Do you think there’s a show in that character? Because I do.” And then I said, “If you do, then there probably is one!” Vince is one of the great writers of our era. That was really my only response when Vince would bring it up, and he would bring it up once a year. Then, a few months after Breaking Bad ended production, we got together to talk about it seriously. Peter Gould—who wrote the first script that featured Saul Goodman and who writes the comedy and the gamesmanship of Saul really well—Vince and I got together at the wonderful Chateau Marmont, a classic Hollywood location. We shot the shit about whether there was a TV show in this. They didn’t know what it would be. They thought it could be a half-hour comedy. They thought it could be a one-hour procedural. In the end it became a lot more like Breaking Bad than like either of those two ideas, but still not entirely like Breaking Bad.

WS: Jimmy McGill is so different from Saul Goodman. How did you connect with that character after so many years of being Saul?
ODENKIRK: He’s striving to please his brother and to get the respect and appreciation of Kim, the girl he loves. I think most people have someone in their lives—a parent or a sibling or a mentor—whose respect they’d love to have. Maybe they get it, but very often they don’t, for a variety of reasons. I don’t think that’s too hard to relate to, even though I can’t think of anyone in my life I feel that way about. But trying to find out who you are and where you fit in society is something I can relate to. It’s rare to know what you should be, occupation-wise, and how you should behave so that the world around you says, Yes, you got it exactly right! Most people do go through a journey of finding that what they love doesn’t necessarily marry with what their skills are or what the world tells them they should be, and over time they try to get them to fit together.

WS: How do you feel about getting closer and closer to being Saul Goodman again?
ODENKIRK: I don’t love Saul, I love Jimmy, so it kind of breaks my heart, to be honest with you. Jimmy has been trying to do the right thing over and over again, and he’s not gaining any ground. Because that isn’t working for him, he’s going to decide to reject people, society and ethics, and he’s going to be mercenary about himself and his life and just take. That’s a shame. It makes me sad. Innocence is being lost, for sure. So I don’t know what to tell you. That’s the journey we’re on. Tough beans for me!

WS: Let’s talk about your journey as an actor. You’ve done so much comedy—what was the biggest challenge in taking on more dramatic work?
ODENKIRK: Well, I love that it was a challenge. And it was a challenge. I was thrilled at the idea of getting to do something fundamentally different from what I’ve spent 30 years doing. I wasn’t sure if it would work! I just knew that the only way to do it would be to completely give myself over to it and try to do it as honestly as I could and work hard at it. I do a lot of rehearsal. I guess the fear of failing on a world stage was pretty massive! On the other hand, I was risking something that I didn’t even have, which was a presence as a dramatic actor and a reputation in that department. So I wasn’t risking something that I’d worked toward all my life. Breaking Bad was loved around the world, so whatever we did was going to be watched and judged around the world. That’s a pretty big gamble to take with yourself and your reputation. And we were just crazy enough to do it.

WS: How does your improv background inform the scripted work you’re doing now? Has it helped your transition into drama?
ODENKIRK: Without a doubt. I was initially drawn to sketch comedy because of Monty Python’s Flying Circus, which was my favorite show as a kid. In doing sketch comedy, you’re going to be around a lot of improvisation, especially in Chicago. Most improvisation exercises were invented to be used for dramatic purposes. I’ve gotten to know some of the people who helped bring improvisation to the masses, if you will, like Del Close and Keith Johnstone. Those guys sold it as something to get an actor to play the moment and to be in the moment and to listen and to be present. So doing a fair amount of improv and thinking about it is all for the good of helping you play some things dramatically. What’s great about it is that it simplifies your job. Your job is to get to know the character, but at some point it’s to let go of all that planning and be that person and be in the moment and react. If I’m any good in drama, it’s due in large part to the improvisational training that I’ve had with Del Close and with The Second City in Chicago and numerous other places.

WS: Do you consult with Peter and Vince on your story arcs or character development?
ODENKIRK: It’s funny you ask that. I was just with Peter yesterday, and we sat down for about an hour and a half and talked about every aspect of the show—production, story, all kinds of things. Sometimes, if there’s something in the script that bumps me, I’ll call him and say, Why am I saying this? Why am I doing that? But as far as the overall journey, I try to stay out of it. I speak to them literally as a fan of the show. I say, Here’s what I think is going to happen, here’s what I wish would happen. And I don’t know how much that means to them. They listen! [Laughs] They act like they care! Yesterday I told Peter a thought I had about the show. Our universe is becoming the Breaking Bad universe. And you can feel it. That’s both good and bad. It’s good because it’s super fun—for a fan of Breaking Bad, it just makes you happy. It’s kind of bad, too, because we could lose the emphasis on this wonderful, unique story that they’ve chosen to tell and that has connected with people—the story of Jimmy and Kim. So we talked about that and ways in which we could upend the journey so that people got to enjoy the fact that we are going to become the universe of Breaking Bad, but not in a way that feels like it’s the point of our show, because it isn’t. I think there are ways you could do that. But I’ve got to leave it to Peter and Vince to choose what they do.

WS: Do you expect that there will be a post–Breaking Bad story to tell, of Gene managing the Cinnabon in Omaha?
ODENKIRK: I do! That’s something that I hope Peter and Vince do. And that’s something that they’ve told me they are also interested in. So I don’t know if it’s one episode or a season or what, but yes, there’s a story to tell with Gene and the post–Breaking Bad world that he lives in.

WS: Where would Saul be if he’d never crossed paths with Walter White and Jesse Pinkman?
ODENKIRK: He’d be running his law offices in that mall, serving the homeboys and the gangsters, and he’d be struggling but making some coin! I think he’s good at that, and there’s money to be made there. The whole interaction with Walter and Jesse was like putting all your money on one number that looks really good and then turns out to be a bust. He wouldn’t have had that opportunity to bet it all, and he wouldn’t have bet it all, and he’d still be a sleazy lawyer making a half-decent living. And who knows, maybe running for office!