Endemol Shine International’s Cathy Payne

Cathy Payne, the CEO of Endemol Shine International, talks to World Screen about the genres that are currently in demand and which types of rights are most sought-after by buyers.

When the Endemol Shine Group was established nearly two years ago, it formed a global entity that now consists of some 120 production companies across 30 markets, all of which produce scripted or unscripted programming, or both. Cathy Payne, the CEO of the distribution arm, Endemol Shine International, is tasked with finding shows created by the group that have global appeal. Many have indeed become hits in numerous territories, from Broadchurch and The Fall to MasterChef. Payne and her team also look for third-party product that can complement the titles in their growing library, which amounts to more than 40,000 hours of finished programming.

WS: There is considerable demand for drama now. How is Endemol Shine satisfying that need?
PAYNE: We are continuing to do what we’ve always done and that is to find innovative stories that we can pitch and sell. I do think that there has been an increased demand for drama, but when you talk about increased demand, we’re largely talking about the U.S. market, where there are more outlets, and the streaming services worldwide. In the U.S., there are a number of channels that didn’t previously program scripted that are now moving into this genre because it can offer them unique opportunities for programming that very much identifies their channel. However, a lot of the content that is being commissioned in the U.S. is not necessarily traveling widely internationally. You’re seeing a lot of the big output deals disappearing in key markets. There is less American product in prime time outside the U.S. than there used to be.

WS: Does Endemol Shine International help secure financing for some of its more ambitious scripted series?
PAYNE: Normally, from the outset, we work out a rough financing plan with the production company that can then be fine-tuned once the primary broadcaster is secured. We then look at whether the deficit is at the level we would finance immediately or whether we need to also secure a presale. I don’t think there’s any scripted show that you acquire these days from English-speaking markets that you don’t have to deficit finance to a certain level. Working alongside our production companies [to finance] scripted is a constant day-to-day activity.

WS: Are there any trends in the market at present in factual programming?
PAYNE: With factual, there is certainly a market for those innovative formats that are not too expensive to set up and that can travel well. For example, Gogglebox is a really nifty idea, and it’s not too expensive to produce. The people you cast become the talent. Ninja Warrior has done incredibly well. It’s a very physical and visual game show, but it’s on a much smaller scale in terms of the set compared to other physical game shows we have seen in the past.

We always find that British food-based factual content does very well. For us, MasterChef is a huge driver. We’ve always done very well with British factual entertainment, from shows like The Island to Supersize vs Superskinny. British factual is probably the best-traveling factual product in the world.

WS: Are you looking to increase the amount of programming you offer in any genres?
PAYNE: I’d like more broad-audience factual. We’ve had a couple of key franchises come to an end and they are sadly missed. As a company, we are also very committed to looking at how we refresh our long-running franchises to keep them relevant for the audience. We would love more unscripted programming from the U.S.

We’re always looking for good shows, either in food, lifestyle or property—the U.K. home-restoration series always travel very well for us.

WS: How do you decide how many new titles you want to highlight at a given market?
PAYNE: We do have a lot of product, and we will have a lot launching at MIPCOM, but what we try to do is make sure that it’s broken down into genres that suit the buyers who come looking for that product. Then we try to offer just mouthful pieces, rather than overrun people. In any pitch—and we are lucky that often we have more than one or two new titles that appeal to a broadcaster—you need to make sure that you pitch that product to the right broadcaster and look at the broadcaster’s strengths and weaknesses. Our clients vary from the larger broadcasters and platforms focused on a prime-time format or a larger scripted acquisition to digital channels that acquire volume.

WS: How do you work with the various Endemol Shine production units to choose titles for international distribution?
PAYNE: We have regular updates, so we know what’s in production, what’s on their development slates, what programs are close to getting a green light and what’s not. Our goal is that wherever possible we distribute all product that the group produces. What we invest in terms of distribution finance is a reflection of where we predict we can sell the product. We provide our internal and third-party producers with feedback—on what’s working in the market, what is challenging, what we would like more of, etc. It’s about collaboration. You’ll see a lot of producers that like to have a mixed slate; they have their day-to-day, bread-and-butter programming and then they might have a couple of real prestige pieces or they might be doing something in the digital space. It’s about looking at what they’re doing and making sure that you’re relevant and have the right product and skills to advise them.

WS: How do you add to your offering with third-party titles? What do you look for in acquisitions?
PAYNE: It’s fair to say that as we’ve become bigger, there are certain areas where it would be unlikely that we’d look for third-party product. We don’t really go out looking for reality shows; those are things that are supplied through our own companies. Scripted is always a big area of focus. Most of our scripted acquisitions would be bigger, bolder pieces rather than smaller pieces.

WS: In the U.S. this year, stacking rights became a make-or-break negotiating point with studios as networks were deciding what new shows to add to their fall schedules. Are stacking rights becoming an issue in other territories as well?
PAYNE: Stacking rights are always an issue and have been for quite some time. Everyone wants to have exclusivity of their offering and to offer flexibility in how a viewer can consume a show. I would say the heaviest things that we discuss in our negotiations are what rights they’re taking and what additional rights they may want, what other opportunities there are for their viewers to watch what they are seeking, and what broadcasters or platforms are prepared to pay to acquire those rights. You have to remember, the more rights you give upfront and the more times the show is available on those services will have an effect on revenue in the next window. We’re mindful of understanding broadcasters’ needs, but there is also a value to these rights we are licensing and we must make sure that we are reimbursed for that fairly.

WS: What are some of the most important issues today in international distribution?
PAYNE: Our main negotiation points are: exclusivity of product offering, what windows buyers are taking and if they just want a holdback or if they want to exploit that window as well; and flexibility of viewing, which involves all the technological advances that come with smart TVs, such as cloud storage, sideloading, etc. If I’m a broadcaster, I want people to watch a show on my channels, and that can be linear channels or nonlinear channels, and be exclusive to me as long as they can be. But there’s got to be a cost for an extended exclusivity.

WS: What are some of your long-running best sellers?
PAYNE: Broadchurch is one. We’ve got the third season of that filming now. Broadchurch was a breakthrough when it happened. Peaky Blinders was reordered for seasons four and five. We’ve got The Fall season three coming back. Grantchester season three coming back. Humans season two.

In non-scripted we have The Island, a third season of which went out in the U.K. And then of course there is MasterChef. We’ve now produced over 50 versions of MasterChef worldwide and it continues to do very well and grow all the time.